Topic: Madlax as a person (SPOILER WARNING)

[Koveras]

I'm sorry for lobbying "MADLAX" so shamelessly, but right now I'm almost as obsessed with it as I was with Noir two years ago. %)

The reason why put up this poll was that in the series, Madlax is a person with such charisma that almost every other character feels attracted to her, no matter what their beliefs, positions and genders are. Moreover, I've found myself thinking something like "Man, I wish I met this girl someday..." more than once while watching it and afterwards. According to my observations, such genuine correspondence of characters' and viewer's attitudes is a rare thing, even in anime.

Therefore, to prove my suspicion, I ask those who watched the entire series about their attitude to (the) Madlax as a person.

[MartAnimE]

Interesting topic! Madlax is indeed a curious person, she's just so cool without trying, and uncommonly cheerful and kind for a person who kills for a living. There's a part of me who's still a bit disapointed at her negligence towards Limelda. She should have just killed her in one of the many oportunities she had... (instead of leaving with her at the end of the series...) She's just too laid back like that at times... but I guess I don't hate that! ^^;
 Well, anyway, for the lack of a "she's ok, but I prefer Margaret" pool option, I guess I'm inclined to vote "yes"!

[Koveras]

There's a part of me who's still a bit disapointed at her negligence towards Limelda. She should have just killed her in one of the many oportunities she had... (instead of leaving with her at the end of the series...)

Ah, the shoujo-ai topic. %) I think, Limelda's role was that of a spiritual protector for Madlax all along, that's why she wasn't killed.

Spoiler: show

As Madlax said herself, she needed someone to keep an eye on her so that she doesn't disappear, since Madlax is an ephemeral being. Therefore Limelda's obsession with her was like an anchor in our world, which she might have felt all along, too.

Or maybe, Madlax just wanted to keep alive the only one on Earth who was capable of matching her in combat. =) That's a bit Alucard-like, but Madlax has to train, too, doesn't she? =)

Well, anyway, for the lack of a "she's ok, but I prefer Margaret" pool option, I guess I'm inclined to vote "yes"!

Spoiler: show

Well, since Margaret and Madlax are basically the same person, I guess it doesn't matter.

Although personally I didn't like Margaret as I liked Madlax. I mean, Margaret is cute and wise and even cool (towards the end), but Madlax has this strange effect on me that makes me see her as a goddess instead of normal human. I cannot judge her objectively, that's the problem.

[MartAnimE]

Ah, the shoujo-ai topic.

 No, wait... please don't put it like that! ^^; I don't sympathize with Limelda at all, but that has nothing to do with said "shoujo-ai topic"! I'm not saying I hate Limelda because "she's an evil lesbian who pulled Madlax to the dark side and therefore deserves to die"! (that wouldn't be a very nice thing to say, now would it? )

 I dislike her because I think she's a wrong kind of person overall. I think Limelda is insane, in the way her actions don't make much sense to me. And she has done many "bad things" she never came to repent off. She's been offered the truth, the chance of a new start, a meaningful existence. But she's not strong enough to let go of her wrong beliefs, admit her mistakes, repent and start over new as a reborn person. She chooses the easy way out: denial.

 She actually did dwell on the subject for a while, but in the end she decided to keep the fake reality she was living in by denying the one who showed her the truth: Madlax. She denies her attraction to Madlax by trying to kill her multiple times, though still admiting her obssession towards her (now that's insanity! :? ). In the end, I guess that's pretty much what it ended up being, an unjustified and unhealthy obssession. It's not love. Madlax pretty much invited Limelda into her side. Madlax gave her the "Love option". But Limelda choosed insanity.

 Also, I think Limelda is a bad influence to Madlax, while Vanessa was a good influence! The "bad influence" quite literally killed the "good influence"! And for that, I can't forgive her! (Well, call it a grudge if you must... ^^; )

Madlax has this strange effect on me that makes me see her as a goddess instead of normal human.

 I still prefer normal humans to gods. Gods are just so perfect, they can't lose, and they know they can't lose. That's exactly what Madlax does! When she's fighting entire armies, in a dress, doing all sorts of cool acrobacies and striking poses... ^^; Normal humans are flawed, they are imperfect. But they can still overcame all sorts of hardships despise their weaknesses. They can lose, but they'd still take risks! And that's what's so beautiful about them! ^^

[Koveras]

she's an evil lesbian who pulled Madlax to the dark side and therefore deserves to die"! (that wouldn't be a very nice thing to say, now would it? Wink )

Yes, I guess it was the other way around: it was Madlax who pulled Limelda to the Dark Side of the Force. If you recall, Limelda was a perfectly normal, loyal and courageous soldier before her encounter with Madlax. And look what she has become? Killing her own subordinates is not the way the Jedi. And don't forget, Limelda was a perfectly heterosexual young women when it all started. =)

But Limelda choosed insanity.

Still, I think the ending was more ambigious than just that.

Spoiler: show

From what I understood, Limelda decided to follow Madlax wherever she leads her, even into the "truth". Anyway, the fact that she didn't just walked away and fled Gazth Sonika, which she definitely could, shows that her denial of reality wasn't absolute. She tried to change the reality back to normal and the only way she could think of was removing the disturbing element, that is, Madlax.

While I do not disagree, that Limelda was pretty much insane, I firmly believe that seeing Madlax killed in that "sacred place" at the end has changed her. While she wanted to kill her herself, she deliberately protected her from other attackers. In the end, however, she wasn't able to kill her, too. Therefore, she probably decided to keep doing what she was doing before that showdown in the Mr. Monday's church - that is, protecting Madlax.

On the other hand, since Madlax doesn't need protection - obviously - Limelda's decision was senseless and irrational, which again speaks for (a mild form of) insanity. To conclude all said above, I would like to ask, what would any other person have done in a situation like Limelda's one? I mean, doesn't the collapsing of the entire world image in one's head always drive one insane? Why is it so hard to sympathize with someone who lost everything and barely tries to find something to hold on onto?

And please, don't think I blame Mr. Monday for all the troubles. I'm afraid his own world image has collapse long before the first "incident" when he suddenly discovered the most cruel side of human being and mistook it for the dominant one. His story is even sadder than Limelda's.

Spoiler: show

Also, I think Limelda is a bad influence to Madlax, while Vanessa was a good influence! The "bad influence" quite literally killed the "good influence"! And for that, I can't forgive her! (Well, call it a grudge if you must... ^^; )

Yes, Vanessa's death was a shock to me, too, however, I do not blame Limelda for it. Limelda was just at the wrong place, at the wrong time (as always). And Vanessa had it coming her way, too. In the end, it was Madlax' fault, - really, she should've talked her best friend out of learning to shoot a gun. In a war, when you take a gun in your hand and shoot, it is more than likely that without any considerable training, you'll get gunned down pretty soon. Limelda and Madlax had this training, Vanessa didn't. And still she charged blindly into their firefight. If she wouldn't have been killed by Limelda, some other soldier would've got her sooner or later. That's a war.

I still prefer normal humans to gods. Gods are just so perfect, they can't lose, and they know they can't lose. That's exactly what Madlax does! When she's fighting entire armies, in a dress, doing all sorts of cool acrobacies and striking poses... ^^;

That's why the series isn't exactly about her. She is in the center of everything, but she doesn't change at all. Everyone around her is constantly developing, influence by her or her actions, but she stays in the eye of storm and nothing can get to her. That's why I call her a goddess.

Normal humans are flawed, they are imperfect. But they can still overcame all sorts of hardships despise their weaknesses. They can lose, but they'd still take risks! And that's what's so beautiful about them! ^^

Elda Taluta! "The normal humans are pathtic fools waiting to be butchered down for the sake of the few special ones," accroding to some ancient Sith Lord, I don't know the name any more. %) Anyway, I, too, find that human ability to overcome everything despite their weaknesses is what makes them (my, doesn't this "them" sound a bit arrogant of me?) so interesting, yet by doing so they constantly try to achive the divine status, and that's why humans needed, need and always will need gods. A god is simply the "me" who can do anything. It is by achieving this goal of divinity that human life progresses.

However, it seems I've ventured to far from the original topic into the fields of heavy-weight philosophy debates. Sorry.

[Fellini 8.5]

Well, this is a spoiler-ific thread, isn't it??  

Seriously, though, there's still a lot of folks in here who haven't gotten to the good bits yet; y'all might want to tag those or something.

(As for my input on the thread -- like with all the other serious threads I haven't participated in yet, I haven't been able to take the time I know it would take to craft one of my patented windy replies.  Maybe soon. )

Resume philosophising...

[Koveras]

Seriously, though, there's still a lot of folks in here who haven't gotten to the good bits yet; y'all might want to tag those or something.

Please, note that I was trying to at the beginning, but after observing a certain neglectance of this rule in some of the older members of the community, I came to the conclusion, that it is OK. Therefore I offer my sincere "Sorry" to everyone who got his fun of wathing Madlax taken awya because of my posting (before I covered the spoilers).

Oh, btw it might be easier if a shorter form of [spoiler]-tag is introduced, e.g. . AFAIK by default, it means some styling elemnt, but not a very important one...

[MartAnimE]

Seriously, though, there's still a lot of folks in here who haven't gotten to the good bits yet; y'all might want to tag those or something.

 You're absolutely right about that. I'm sorry. It was solely my mistake really. Koveras was actually covering all his spoilers. ^^; I should have been more careful, though I think it's better to write freely without restraint when it comes to such topics where spoiling is unavoidable. If we covered all our spoilers I don't think there would be much of a readable thread left to the people who haven't seen the whole thing anyway. Still, I'm really sorry if anyone got spoiled because of me. I think it was a good idea to label this thread's title with a "spoiler warning"!

Yes, I guess it was the other way around: it was Madlax who pulled Limelda to the Dark Side of the Force. If you recall, Limelda was a perfectly normal, loyal and courageous soldier before her encounter with Madlax. And look what she has become? Killing her own subordinates is not the way the Jedi. And don't forget, Limelda was a perfectly heterosexual young women when it all started. =)

 Yeah, like I stated before, I am not condemning anyone, regardless of who pulled who to said "dark side". That's actually an irrelevant matter. If you think about it carefully, none of them influenced each other to become "bad", they were both already willingly and consciously killing people for a living, regardless of each one's different reasons to do so.

To conclude all said above, I would like to ask, what would any other person have done in a situation like Limelda's one? I mean, doesn't the collapsing of the entire world image in one's head always drive one insane? Why is it so hard to sympathize with someone who lost everything and barely tries to find something to hold on onto?

 That's a fair question! But I can't really put myself in Limelda's place and think what would I do in her situation. Cuz I would never become a soldier to begin with. I'm just against the soldier's ideology... ^^; But I guess that, if I was ok with the idea of blindly following orders that would imply killing other human beings without questioning it, then I suppose I would just aswell be ok with all the other things she did after having her reality colapsing on her.

Yes, Vanessa's death was a shock to me, too, however, I do not blame Limelda for it. Limelda was just at the wrong place, at the wrong time (as always). And Vanessa had it coming her way, too. In the end, it was Madlax' fault, - really, she should've talked her best friend out of learning to shoot a gun. In a war, when you take a gun in your hand and shoot, it is more than likely that without any considerable training, you'll get gunned down pretty soon. Limelda and Madlax had this training, Vanessa didn't. And still she charged blindly into their firefight. If she wouldn't have been killed by Limelda, some other soldier would've got her sooner or later. That's a war.

 Yes, it's true it was mostly Vanessa's own fault that she got killed. She choosed to go to a country in war. She choosed to get ahold of dangerous information and try and go public with it, despise the low chances of success. She decided to start using a gun, and when you're willing to start shooting you must except to get shot back aswell, of course. Like I stated before, Vanessa, as a normal human being, knew perfectly well she could lose, but she was still willing to take risks, and that's what I find inspiring in Vanessa. Her feeling of wanting to do what she thought was right, to reveal the truth, to prove her parent's innocence, to make justice prevail no matter the obstacles ahead! It's a trully brave, honoured and beautiful thing to pursue! ^^

 What is actually revolting, not as much as the fact that Limelda shot Vanessa (after all, Vanessa shot her too and all she did was strike back), is the fact that Madlax was so quick to forgive Limelda for killing Vanessa. No matter how much I try to, I can't really relate to that. I mean, by a long stretch of imagination, I might pheraps have been able to forgive a person who'd kill someone I care about. (spoiler to Noir ahead ^^; )

Spoiler: show

(pretty much like Mireille forgives Kirika for killing her family for example)

But Limelda is hardly likable and therefore forgivable, from my point of view... she didn't even apologised nor showed any remorse for it!

Elda Taluta! "The normal humans are pathtic fools waiting to be butchered down for the sake of the few special ones," accroding to some ancient Sith Lord, I don't know the name any more. %) Anyway, I, too, find that human ability to overcome everything despite their weaknesses is what makes them (my, doesn't this "them" sound a bit arrogant of me?) so interesting, yet by doing so they constantly try to achive the divine status, and that's why humans needed, need and always will need gods. A god is simply the "me" who can do anything. It is by achieving this goal of divinity that human life progresses.

However, it seems I've ventured to far from the original topic into the fields of heavy-weight philosophy debates. Sorry.

 Heh that's ok! I can perfectly handle "heavy-weight philosophy debates", but you've ventured too far from the original topic into the fields of heavy-weight "star war" debates aswell! When I refer to the "dark side" I don't really mean it as in "the dark side of the Force" but rather "the dark side of human nature"! ^^; Anyway, I believe people don't really need a "God" as much as they need someone to inspire them! And that one can perfectly be just a normal flawed and imperfect human being just like anyone of us!

[Koveras]

Yeah, like I stated before, I am not condemning anyone, regardless of who pulled who to said "dark side". That's actually an irrelevant matter. If you think about it carefully, none of them influenced each other to become "bad", they were both already willingly and consciously killing people for a living, regardless of each one's different reasons to do so.

Killing people is not necessary bad thing, however cynical that may sound.

That's a fair question! But I can't really put myself in Limelda's place and think what would I do in her situation. Cuz I would never become a soldier to begin with. I'm just against the soldier's ideology... ^^; But I guess that, if I was ok with the idea of blindly following orders that would imply killing other human beings without questioning it, then I suppose I would just aswell be ok with all the other things she did after having her reality colapsing on her.

This assumtion may be not very correct, since the very definition of being a soldier is that you are a small part of a bigger system. A soldier always knows where he is, what he is and what he is got to do to advance. People get used to it (they always do, for some reason) and the moment the system throws them out or they are forced to leave it, they are blinded, without any orientation and plans any more. That is the reason why so many people dislike the idea of an organized army - it strips away all your individuality.

What is actually revolting, not as much as the fact that Limelda shot Vanessa (after all, Vanessa shot her too and all she did was strike back), is the fact that Madlax was so quick to forgive Limelda for killing Vanessa. No matter how much I try to, I can't really relate to that. I mean, by a long stretch of imagination, I might pheraps have been able to forgive a person who'd kill someone I care about. (spoiler to Noir ahead ^^; )

Spoiler: show

(pretty much like Mireille forgives Kirika for killing her family for example)

But Limelda is hardly likable and therefore forgivable, from my point of view... she didn't even apologised nor showed any remorse for it!

As you said yourself, Limelda's actions were a self-defence, and after all, she was outnumbered and outgunned by the factor of two (^.^). And I already said it was a war. In war, you first shoot at everything that moves in your direction (remember Margaret's father and Poupe) and then check out what that was. Madlax knew that better than anyone that's why she forgave Limelda. And, as you admitted, it was, for the most part, Vanessa's own fault, too.

Heh that's ok! I can perfectly handle "heavy-weight philosophy debates", but you've ventured too far from the original topic into the fields of heavy-weight "star war" debates aswell! When I refer to the "dark side" I don't really mean it as in "the dark side of the Force" but rather "the dark side of human nature"! ^^; Anyway, I believe people don't really need a "God" as much as they need someone to inspire them! And that one can perfectly be just a normal flawed and imperfect human being just like anyone of us!

Oh, so you draw a line between a God and a Hero. Good idea, yet the role of a Hero is to lead the others, being close to the people he or she inspires and fighting or working right alongside them. A God, on the other hand, is condemned to remain static, staying motionless in order to give people something to fix their eyes on, clench their fists and move forward.

The reason for this is the same: the Hero, still being an imperfect homo sapiens specimen, must be constantly developing towards his or her ideals and in doing so, being an example for the others. The God, being a perfect being, doesn't have any ideals to strive for, since he is the ideal himself. Yet he can still manage to be a guiding star for the rest of sentient beings - that is, both normal humans and Heroes.

As for the Jedi stuff, sorry, I've just become a big Star Wars fan over the last few years. %)

[MartAnimE]

Heh... ^^; why isn't anyone else joinig the discussion? :? Oh well...

Killing people is not necessary bad thing, however cynical that may sound.

 I said "killing people for a living"! There are many reasons that would lead a person to kill another. Some might even be justified! But when you do it for the money I consider that a bad thing...

That is the reason why so many people dislike the idea of an organized army - it strips away all your individuality.

 And that's precisely the reason why I dislike the idea of a soldier's philosophy. I praise individuality. The freedom to think for yourself and take important decisions for yourself, and most importantly, to take responsability for your acts.

As you said yourself, Limelda's actions were a self-defence, and after all, she was outnumbered and outgunned by the factor of two (^.^). And I already said it was a war. In war, you first shoot at everything that moves in your direction (remember Margaret's father and Poupe) and then check out what that was. Madlax knew that better than anyone that's why she forgave Limelda. And, as you admitted, it was, for the most part, Vanessa's own fault, too.

 As logical as it might sound, it's still  a pretty cold and uncomprehensable position to take. I can't quite believe Madlax would rationalize in such a cold logic after the loss of someone important to her. Her only friend as she said herself. Even if Limelda's act was self-defense, even if Vanessa was foolish, why should Madlax take Limelda's side? Why should Madlax ever take the side of her only friend's murderer? :? (you see now why Limelda is a bad influence to Madlax? It's like her insanity is contageous! ^^; )

Oh, so you draw a line between a God and a Hero. Good idea, yet the role of a Hero is to lead the others, being close to the people he or she inspires and fighting or working right alongside them. A God, on the other hand, is condemned to remain static, staying motionless in order to give people something to fix their eyes on, clench their fists and move forward.

 Your concept of God is that of a mere watcher who doesn't interfere right?. So why should people follow someone who's not doing anything to make things better? Why should people worship said God figure? You think they own It anything? You think people can really relly on such a God? I think people should only follow, care, help and relly on other people. Cuz people are the only ones who are able to do anything, no matter how small it might be. This isn't a "God hating" matter btw! I respect other people's beliefs and concepts. Just take it as a glorification of the human being!

 And not to go entirely off-topic... ^^; whatever it was that made me feel sympathetic towards Madlax's character weren't her "god-like" characteristics, but rather her kind and vulnerable human side! ^^

[Koveras]

Heh... ^^; why isn't anyone else joinig the discussion? :? Oh well...

I guess, no one else really cares about the series to this degree.

I said "killing people for a living"! There are many reasons that would lead a person to kill another. Some might even be justified! But when you do it for the money I consider that a bad thing...

Ah yes, this is the topic of moral and ethics. The usual counter-argument here is that life is only sustained by killing, which means that to live you need to kill. Whether you need to kill particularily fellow humans in order to survive depends on the situation.

And that's precisely the reason why I dislike the idea of a soldier's philosophy. I praise individuality. The freedom to think for yourself and take important decisions for yourself, and most importantly, to take responsability for your acts.

Yet, human society is not just a bunch of individuals who only live for themselves, is it? Individuality alone cannot guarantee you a (happy) life. Unless you have something to hold onto you soon become confused, lose your way and die in misery. On the other hand, however, being a part of a whole your entire life may prove fatal when you are suddenly left alone. That was made pretty clear in Limelda's story.

You said yourself, you disliked her decision to kill Madlax, which in turn made her kill Vanessa instead. Yet it was her own, free-willed decision and she accepted the responsibility for it, by offering Madlax her life as a retribution. And still you don't like her. Isn't that just because it's generally  not a good idea to make decisions without consulting others?

As logical as it might sound, it's still  a pretty cold and uncomprehensable position to take. I can't quite believe Madlax would rationalize in such a cold logic after the loss of someone important to her. Her only friend as she said herself. Even if Limelda's act was self-defense, even if Vanessa was foolish, why should Madlax take Limelda's side? Why should Madlax ever take the side of her only friend's murderer? :? (you see now why Limelda is a bad influence to Madlax? It's like her insanity is contageous! ^^; )

Ok, if you don't like my cold-hearted arguments, I can try the emotional approach: is Madlax a likely person to carry out personal revenge? You ask, why Madlax sided with Limelda after what she's done to her. Well, who else did she have? Approximately at this time, she became slowly aware of her true nature (as seen in her responses about herself) and therefore she desperately needed some proof that she existed at all. Limelda's "dark" and "insane" obsession with her was just what Madlax needed. Like hell was she gonna kill someone who was so sure that a person named Madlax was really there for some time!

If you recall, the idea of losing oneself played a great role in another episode of the series, the one about the detective who tried to find out about Enfant. Mr. Monday and his accomplices made every last trace of his existence disappear and, surprisingly enough, he's gone crazy. I think something something like that was what Madlax has feared. You see, she didn't hate Limelda from the beginning. For some time, she was afraid of her, that's true, just as she was a bit wary of Vanessa at the start. But she didn't hate her. I doubt she was even capable of hating anyone! And now you say that she shoudl've killed Limelda in order to avenge Vanessa, which, you admit, wasn't entirely her fault.

Your concept of God is that of a mere watcher who doesn't interfere right?. So why should people follow someone who's not doing anything to make things better? Why should people worship said God figure? You think they own It anything? You think people can really relly on such a God? I think people should only follow, care, help and relly on other people. Cuz people are the only ones who are able to do anything, no matter how small it might be. This isn't a "God hating" matter btw! I respect other people's beliefs and concepts. Just take it as a glorification of the human being!

Ok, then let me ask you this: what has Christian God ever made for us, humans, except what's written in the Bible? Has Jesus Christ ever came down to Earth to help the poor, the hungry and the hopeless since that glorious morning 1974 years ago? Yet millions of Christians worldwide believe in his ideals and try to shape the reality according to them. And the world really changes because of this.

A true God never interferes but his image moves people. Throughout the history, there were countless incidents when people acted according to their beliefs even though these were never really confirmed. Now that I think of it, I come to the conclusion that there is no entity that can be called "God". God is an ideal that resides in the heart of every human. Yet there are some people who are more willing to live up to that ideal than others. Such people are what I call "Heroes".

Therefore, it is pointless to argue whether it is God that people follow or fellow humans, whose souls are for some reasons closer to the ideal. People follow those whose ideals, whose belief and devotion are stronger. Those who have nothing to say cannot lead others.

And not to go entirely off-topic... ^^; whatever it was that made me feel sympathetic towards Madlax's character weren't her "god-like" characteristics, but rather her kind and vulnerable human side! ^^

That's exactly why I put the third option into the poll - because of her character's complexity.

[MartAnimE]

I guess, no one else really cares about the series to this degree.

 I know for sure that's not true! ^^

The usual counter-argument here is that life is only sustained by killing, which means that to live you need to kill. Whether you need to kill particularily fellow humans in order to survive depends on the situation.

 Though neither Madlax nor Limelda really needed to have killed most of the people they had been killing so far. In some ocasions they might have done it to survive, but most of the time they're just following orders from someone else, and being paid for it.

Yet, human society is not just a bunch of individuals who only live for themselves, is it? Individuality alone cannot guarantee you a (happy) life. Unless you have something to hold onto you soon become confused, lose your way and die in misery.

 Well I never said anything like that. ^^; "a bunch of individuals who only live for themselves" is what I would call selfishness, not individuality! Don't mix both things! Of course people must have something to hold onto. But they should find what to hold onto by themselves! There are many healthy ways of becoming part of a whole without losing your individuality!

You said yourself, you disliked her decision to kill Madlax, which in turn made her kill Vanessa instead. Yet it was her own, free-willed decision and she accepted the responsibility for it, by offering Madlax her life as a retribution. And still you don't like her. Isn't that just because it's generally  not a good idea to make decisions without consulting others?

 I didn't understand this point very well. ^^;

Ok, if you don't like my cold-hearted arguments, I can try the emotional approach: is Madlax a likely person to carry out personal revenge? You ask, why Madlax sided with Limelda after what she's done to her. Well, who else did she have? Approximately at this time, she became slowly aware of her true nature (as seen in her responses about herself) and therefore she desperately needed some proof that she existed at all. Limelda's "dark" and "insane" obsession with her was just what Madlax needed. Like hell was she gonna kill someone who was so sure that a person named Madlax was really there for some time!

If you recall, the idea of losing oneself played a great role in another episode of the series, the one about the detective who tried to find out about Enfant. Mr. Monday and his accomplices made every last trace of his existence disappear and, surprisingly enough, he's gone crazy. I think something something like that was what Madlax has feared. You see, she didn't hate Limelda from the beginning. For some time, she was afraid of her, that's true, just as she was a bit wary of Vanessa at the start. But she didn't hate her. I doubt she was even capable of hating anyone! And now you say that she shoudl've killed Limelda in order to avenge Vanessa, which, you admit, wasn't entirely her fault.

 Madlax didn't have to kill Limelda. She didn't have to avenge Vanessa. But she didn't have to become best friends with Limelda all of a sudden for the lack of a better person. She could just go back to the way she was in the beggining: working for SSS as a solo agent with not many "friends" or associates! She could even associate with Margaret and Leticia instead! I just think it's weird of her to be able to sympathize with Limelda after what she has done! Anyway, it's just my opinion, whatever Madlax chooses for herself is her will and I have only to accept that! But I don't have to sympathize with Limelda myself! ^^;

Ok, then let me ask you this: what has Christian God ever made for us, humans, except what's written in the Bible? Has Jesus Christ ever came down to Earth to help the poor, the hungry and the hopeless since that glorious morning 1974 years ago? Yet millions of Christians worldwide believe in his ideals and try to shape the reality according to them. And the world really changes because of this.

A true God never interferes but his image moves people. Throughout the history, there were countless incidents when people acted according to their beliefs even though these were never really confirmed. Now that I think of it, I come to the conclusion that there is no entity that can be called "God". God is an ideal that resides in the heart of every human. Yet there are some people who are more willing to live up to that ideal than others. Such people are what I call "Heroes".

 Heh, I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstood my previous statements! I'm not expecting nor demanding any actions from said "God"! I'm not saying God is cruel and unfair. Not saying that people shouldn't follow him because of that. Not promoting Atheism either... I don't even want to discuss religion really! I just feel inspired by heroes rather than gods, that's all. ^^;

[JP Yuri]

Heh... ^^; why isn't anyone else joinig the discussion? :? Oh well...

Because I'm only at the end of disc 3, and anyways, I always get owned whenever I participate in a deep discussion. :lol:

[MartAnimE]

Because I'm only at the end of disc 3, and anyways, I always get owned whenever I participate in a deep discussion. :lol:

 Yikes! Watch out for the spoilers then! You shouldn't be reading the thread if you don't want it ruined for you... :?
 But you shouldn't feel intimidated just because you think this is a deep discussion! We're not trying to get each other "owned" here! This isn't about who wins or loses! ^^; It's just a debate really! And as many different opinions we get the more succesful and entertaining the thread becomes I think!

[Koveras]

Though neither Madlax nor Limelda really needed to have killed most of the people they had been killing so far. In some ocasions they might have done it to survive, but most of the time they're just following orders from someone else, and being paid for it.

"Being paid" is the crucial point here. If that's what Madlax and Limelda did for the living, killing people was neccessary for them to survive.

Well I never said anything like that. ^^; "a bunch of individuals who only live for themselves" is what I would call selfishness, not individuality! Don't mix both things! Of course people must have something to hold onto. But they should find what to hold onto by themselves! There are many healthy ways of becoming part of a whole without losing your individuality!

The line between selfishness and individuality is very thin. Moreover, when you try to think for yourself, you always wind up in a conflict with the others. The way between your own wishes and the wishes of the others may be even thinner than that.

You said yourself, you disliked her decision to kill Madlax, which in turn made her kill Vanessa instead. Yet it was her own, free-willed decision and she accepted the responsibility for it, by offering Madlax her life as a retribution. And still you don't like her. Isn't that just because it's generally  not a good idea to make decisions without consulting others?

 I didn't understand this point very well. ^^;

Ah, I guess I had too much pre-exam revisions yesterday... Let me try to formulate it again. Limelda put all her individuality together and made a decision to kill Madlax. It was her free will and she was ready to take the responsibility. Yet, for an objective viewer, it is a bad thing to try to kill Madlax, but instead shoot Vanessa (by accident). You said that humans should be brave enough to make their own decisions. And this example should show that if a person makes up her mind on her own, she can make a terrible mistake. Such that even being ready to face the consequences won't redeem her in your eyes.

Madlax didn't have to kill Limelda. She didn't have to avenge Vanessa. But she didn't have to become best friends with Limelda all of a sudden for the lack of a better person. She could just go back to the way she was in the beggining: working for SSS as a solo agent with not many "friends" or associates! She could even associate with Margaret and Leticia either! I just think it's weird of her to be able to sympathize with Limelda after what she has done! Anyway, it's just my opinion, whatever Madlax chooses for herself is her will and I have only to accept that! But I don't have to sympathize with Limelda myself! ^^;

Hm, we actually don't know what their relationship after the series would be. Last time we see Madlax and Limelda talking is when they are leaving Mr. Monday's manor. Maybe she is just giving her a hitch or something. Limelda is definitely not wanting part with Madlax, but for the latter it's not that clear.

Heh, I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstood my previous statements! I'm not expecting nor demanding any actions from said "God"! I'm not saying God is cruel and unfair. Not saying that people shouldn't follow him because of that. Not promoting Atheism either... I don't even want to discuss religion really! I just feel inspired by heroes rather than gods, that's all. ^^;

Yes, I definitely had too much revision yesterday... What I meant is that God resides in any human and in Heroes - even more so. That's why we are so compelled to follow strong personalities.

I always get owned whenever I participate in a deep discussion.

If by "owned" you mean "mixed with trash", then I promise that I won't go that far just to get my point accepted by everyone. At least, not here. :twisted: This discussion is more like presenting one's point of view from all possible aspects.

But, as MartAnimE already stated, watch carefully for spoilers. By now, we two have got the entire storyline posted here. %)